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Thread: Shock valving - Pedders, Tien, BC, Koni

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    Senior Member 00 Trans Ram's Avatar
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    Default Shock valving - Pedders, Tien, BC, Koni

    As a few of my other threads have shown, I'm researching new shocks for the car. While it's true that this won't be a road race monster, I still want the best shocks I can afford (Penske is out, even if they made struts). However, I'm having a very hard time getting hard data.



    I've heard that there are a couple different types of valve that can be built for an adjustable shock. The typical 30-way (Pedders, Tien, BC, JIC, etc.) shock uses one type of valving, while others (Koni, Penske, etc.) use another.



    Does anyone have shock dyno graphs from any of these for our cars? I had a shock dyno graph from the Koni's that I used to have on the front of my Trans Am, and more than a few from the Afco's that I ran in the rear. Here is the exact dyno graph from a Koni strut insert used for a Porsche 914:







    Now, compare that to the graph of the JIC shocks for another friend's Miata:







    Notice in the first graph how a single adjustment will yield very different dampening? But, in the second graph, the first 20 clicks of adjustment yield little to no difference in dempening. Only the last 7-8 clicks are meaningful, and those are non-linear (meaning that the 28th click has more of an effect than the 27th, which was more than the 26th). To me, it's very hard to tune a repeatably tune a shock if it is not predictable.



    Does anyone have graphs of the Pedders or BC Racing coilovers? I'm familiar with Koni, so I don't need those (although it'd be cool to have if anyone has them). I just want to see what Pedders or BC has to offer.

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    Interesting data you have there. I wonder what you'll find out about this.

    I've not yet started playing with the adjustability of the Pedders SuperCar Coilovers. Knowing how things are going to react (without having to do the trial/error myself) would be great.

    -Todd...

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    Beyond Help TonyKarter's Avatar
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    Good thread! I hope you get some good data. I'd like to see this in detail as well.
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    Senior Member 00 Trans Ram's Avatar
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    This site certainly is not the end-all, be-all of shocks, but it does offer some down-to-earth advice and education on shocks. I've quoted snippets - the entire page/site is good reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Far North Racing
    http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets18.html

    Remember this list:

    Bilstein
    Penske
    Koni
    Ohlins
    Sachs
    Dynamic Suspension
    Not on this list? Almost certainly crap.

    (The reason why JRZ and Moton aren't on the "good" list is simple - I never dynoed any. In the absence of any dyno information one way or the other, I choose to remain silent.)

    Perhaps I should elaborate a little.

    For a while, I was the shock engineer for a race team, and was designing, building, and rebuilding shock packages for customers. A big part of this service was running customer shocks on the dyno to set a baseline for where they were currently at. I dynoed a couple of hundred shocks, representing the spread of almost every shock brand extant.

    - - - - - - -

    Amazingly, save those brands mentioned in that earlier list, this was a non-stop parade of horror, including, but not limited to:

    - Adjusters that did absolutely nothing;
    - Adjusters that had more crosstalk effect than they had primary effect (ie, a rebound adjuster where 1 click made a 10% change in rebound and a 30% change in compression);
    - Adjusters that were nonlinear and exponential;
    - Adjusters that peaked in the middle of the adjustment range (in one example, "full hard" was softer than "full soft");
    - Shimstacks assembled upside-down;
    - Sets of shocks where a front and rear shimstack had been exchanged;
    - Shocks valved with forces that were insane (1600 lbs/in @ 3 in/sec was the record);
    - Shocks that faded so fast (as they warmed up) that no two runs were ever alike;
    - Shocks with adjusters that varied by 10% on the same shock at the same setting, depending on if you got there by going harder or softer; and
    - Shocks that adjusted rebound and compression in lockstep, but had so much compression that backing them down to reasonable levels made rebound way too soft (very common with the Japanese brands like GAB, JIC, Tein, etc)

    - - - - - - - - - -

    Bilstein

    Bilstein makes amazing shocks - they are mechanically simple, parts are dirt cheap and readily available, and the innards of their street shocks and their full-race shocks are identical. Crack open a Bilstien street shock, and inside are the same parts as inside their NASCAR shocks. That means that there is a simple conversion process (involving welding a boss onto the shock body to fit a Shraeder valve into the gas chamber) to turn an off-the-shelf street Bilstein into a full-race, user-serviceable, user-revalvable NASCAR Bilstein.

    (Oh, and don't turn up your nose at "NASCAR" - they are every bit as sophisticated in NASCAR as any high-dollar road racing series, and they have larger economies of scale so parts are cheaper. Any time you can raid a NASCAR parts bin, do so)

    - - - - - - - - - -

    Bilstein also is one of the few sources for MacPhearson struts that can be converted into a take-apart. Locate a set of 1995 Mustang Cobra R struts, gun-drill down the upper stud (there's a hard spot at the friction weld, be careful) and thread the top for the Schraeder valve, and you've got a take-apart. Or if the Mustang stud is too large, you can weld in an inset cup (out of the way of max travel, of course, and don't forget to leave socket clearance)

    - - - - - - - - - - -

    Penske

    Penske shocks are works of art, and they have, hands down, the best adjusters you can get. Their rebound adjuster has tons of control authority and is linear over the meat of its adjustment range. The 8100 series canisters are junk, but the expensive double-adjustable canisters have simply massive control authority (although there are some odd interactions between the two adjusters that you have to be aware of.

    Fitment, as with all race shocks, is always an issue, but Penske has a number of off-the-shelf fitments for some common cars (Corvettes and Vipers come to mind) and the design is modular enough that they can probably custom-fit shocks for you if you are prepared to pay for it. They don't make struts, but there is a company (owned by a guy that works out of the Pennsylvania Penske shop) who will build you custom struts.

    - - - - - - - - - - -

    Koni

    The ubiquitous Koni Yellow is actually a decent shock for the price. The off-the-shelf valving is usually pretty good, the knob is rebound-only with very little crosstalk onto compression, and while the knob is SERIOUSLY nonlinear, it can be worked with: a typical Yellow had 2 1/2 turns of adjustment. The last 1/2 turn to full hard is useless (tiny changes make huge force changes) and the last half to full turn to full soft does nothing, but that turn to turn and a half in the middle of the range usually isn't bad.

    - - - - - - - - - - -

    Here's a tip: anybody who builds you a set of shocks had better provide you with a dyno plot for your shocks, as in, "here's the dyno plots for the very shocks I just sold you". If he can't do it (because he doesn't own a dyno) or if he won't do it (because of some secret-squirrel valving he is trying to keep secret) - run away. All he is doing is hiding his own mistakes from you, and there is a reason why he is doing that. A good rebuilder has nothing to hide.

    That bears repeating: YOU MUST GET DYNO PLOTS FOR EVERY INDIVIDUAL SHOCK YOU BUY, OR YOU ARE WASTING YOUR MONEY. ANYBODY WHO CANNOT OR WILL NOT PROVIDE DYNO PLOTS FOR YOUR SHOCKS IS A FRAUD OR AN IDIOT

    - - - - - - - - - - -

    Dyno Plots

    You must, must, must have dyno plots for your shocks - and not just "typical" plots, but the actual performance of each of your shocks. Anybody who cannot or will not provide you with dyno plots for your shocks is a charlatan. Running the dyno was a huge eye-opener for not only what was out there, but also on what shocks actually did.

    Not only that, but you need as a minimum plots of the forces at slower speeds, around the 3 in/sec peak speed range. Plots of faster speeds are OK, but once you're over about 10 in/sec you're into "big bumps" mode and you're probably just digressing the hell out of the forces anyway. You want to see the shock operating in low speeds, and that is where I found the majority of shock-to-shock variation lived. Shocks that produce near-identical forces at high speeds can be very different at low speeds - get the low speed plots!
    So, anyone ever seen a Pedders dyno? Or is it the white unicorn of the shock world?

    This is what is reported to be the dyno of a BC Racing ER-series coilover. Some Australian websites proclaim that this series coilover is the same as the Pedders Supercar. However, Pedders says that they make their own.



    At this point, here's what I know:

    1) Koni, Pedders and BC Racing make shocks that fit our cars with little/no modification.
    2) Koni will publish their dynos, giving you a general idea of what you are purchasing.
    3) Koni will send dyno sheets of the exact shocks you purchase.

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    Pedders and the BC's are almost identical. Like many other things only a few companies really make shocks and the rest are just rebadged. They could have different valving though even if they are made in the same factory.
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    Yeah - I don't want to say that Pedders are simply BC but rebadged, but many others have said that. And, they look the same. Down to the shape of the nuts on the height adjusters and the font of the type on the adjuster.

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    This is GRRRR8 stuff! Not too sure that I'm smart enough to keep up with the discussion--but smart enough to pay attention!

    Teach on!

    Thanks for sharing,

    Bill B
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    VIP Member toedrag's Avatar
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    Thread resurrection....

    Here are a couple shock dyno's I ran across:

    BC Racing (BR & ER Series), from http://www.bcec.com.tw/function/Dyno.html: There are many different flavors of the BR series, and I have no idea which flavor was used for this plot. Still, notice how little adjustment range there is in the BR series compression phase; the green & yellow lines are almost identical in the lower half of the plot. If this was a G8 version, it seems to function pretty similarly to the Koni Sport, which is neither a compliment nor a knock; it's just an observation.


    Koni Sport (sorry, no real ones yet, only marketing versions), from http://www.koni-na.com/sport.cfm



    Koni FSD (sorry, no real ones yet, only marketing versions), from http://www.koni-na.com/fsd.cfm

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    Senior Member scorpion's Avatar
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    Well I can tell you that pedders and bc are completely different. The only thing that I might be similar is the valving. Here's some pictures.
    Pedders on left bc on right.

    image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg

    Diameter different. Threads different. Shock bodies different. Height different. And even the valve dampner knob is different. So you can't put pedder in bc and vise versa.
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    Senior Member 00 Trans Ram's Avatar
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    Wow - interesting! Thanks.

    Really, that is interesting. I've never seen a shock with different threads on it. I've run Konis, Bilsteins, Penskes, Afcos, Motons, Pro and a couple others. On every single one, the threads were the same. You could exchange collars between them all.

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